Opened 10 years ago

Closed 6 years ago

Last modified 6 years ago

#114 closed task (obsolete)

Tracking Bug for Mac related Issue

Reported by: CarolineM Owned by: daveb
Priority: Normal Milestone:
Component: Sugar on a Stick (SoaS) Version: SoaS 3 (Mirabelle)
Severity: Major Keywords:
Cc: FGrose, lfaraone Distribution/OS: Fedora
Bug Status: Assigned

Description

This is to support the Gardner Pilot Academy Pilot. GPA

All teachers in the Boston Public Schools were given macbooks last year.

Next year we will do a pilot of Sugar on a Stick for the students of GPA.

We think the easiest thing for the teachers is to run Sugar inside OSX on their Macs, feeling as much as possible like any other application.

We want to do a first demo/training soon at the GPA. In preparation for that we'd like to make it easy for the teachers to install Sugar on their Macs. Ideally, download and click a couple of times and you are there.

I know we are close and that it basically works. I'm looking for someone to help me take it the rest of the way to easy and always works.

Change History (32)

comment:1 Changed 10 years ago by mungewell

A 'Free' solution?

I have been experimenting using QEMU to run a SOAS variant direct from the file system within windows, the same technique might work for MAC as well (I don't have access to a MAC to test it though....)

The scheme uses a application EEE (http://www.erikveen.dds.nl/eee/index.html) to wrap both QEMU binaries and startup batch file into a single exe which will decompress to temp directory and run from there.

The batch file calls QEMU from the 'current directory' which is shared as the root drive.

EEE is Free Pascal based, which I believe is available for MAC, as is QEMU.

I have put exe and source here:
http://www.mungewell.org/sugar-emulator/

There are two problems:
1) Network connectivity, the guest OS (Sugar) can see the internet but local network can not see guest OS. This may effect how collaboration might work.

2) The guest OS image must be smaller than 502MBytes, as the QEMU fat technique only uses FAT16 with 8K sectors.

Cheers,
Mungewell.

comment:2 Changed 10 years ago by mungewell

Is there a reason why a commerical virtual machine solution couldn't be used?

comment:3 Changed 10 years ago by daveb

I have created a VirtualBox version of this. The install is still a pain, you need to install VirutalBox and then download a disk image then create a new VM with that image.

Collaboartion works.

Documented the process here http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick_VirtualBox

Looking into EEE which might be good to package it all up.

QEMU has a GUI version called "Q" that does not have acceleration for OS X and is very slow. Otherwise it does work.

comment:4 Changed 10 years ago by brian

Bert Freudenberg created an image for VMWare Fusion that works incredibly well. Fusion has a free 30 day trial.

http://croquetweak.blogspot.com/2008/12/emulating-latest-stable-olpc-xo.html
http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/devel/2008-December/021483.html

comment:5 Changed 10 years ago by wadeb

Can we standardize on an emulator technology? There are currently VMWare, QEMU and VirtualBox images linked from the Wiki.

Also, is there a build stream for SoaS images, like the OLPC Joyride stream? If so, it would be nice to have VM images in our chosen format generated automatically for each release.

comment:6 follow-up: Changed 10 years ago by garycmartin

Do we know the predominance of macs they have? I'm thinking Intel vs. PPC is the elephant in the room here. I have a 1.5Ghz ppc laptop, but have never had a useful experience trying to run an emulated sugar (slooooooowwwwww).

comment:7 in reply to: ↑ 6 Changed 10 years ago by tomeu

Replying to garycmartin:

Do we know the predominance of macs they have? I'm thinking Intel vs. PPC is the elephant in the room here. I have a 1.5Ghz ppc laptop, but have never had a useful experience trying to run an emulated sugar (slooooooowwwwww).

Wonder if building a ppc soas image is something worth considering.

comment:8 follow-up: Changed 10 years ago by wadeb

  • Bug Status set to Unconfimed
  • Distribution/OS set to Unspecified
  • Severity set to Blocker

Focusing on the emulator discussion (which means Intel only atm), I think we need to standardize on a *single* supported emulator and package ready-to-go SoaS images.

It should not be VirtualBox or QEMU. QEMU has almost no Mac support, and VirtualBox is very limited:
http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/01/a-quick-look-at-virtualbox-21.ars

That leaves VMWare as the only workable emulator solution that covers Mac, Windows and Linux. VMWare offers free tools for creating standalone VM images.

So, can we agree to standardize our emulator efforts on VMWare?

comment:9 Changed 10 years ago by CarolineM

Hi,

The teachers in Boston all have macbooks bought in the last 2 years. So these would all be macbooks right?

The schools have a good smattering of old green macs in the classrooms (I'm betting these are ppc).

My client needs are: A VERY VERY easy mac emulation for the teachers. Download it, drag it to your applications folder. THIS IS A BLOCKER for the Sugar on a Stick pilot right now. Teachers will not use sticks. They will use their existing laptops.

I have a lower priority need for a "boot helper" for the old macs that would let students use their sticks. This is a nice to have as it lets us reuse old existing equipment.

I know from a technical point of view we need to standardize. But perhaps we should have a solution that meets our business needs first, then decide if we can improve it, then standardize.

comment:10 Changed 10 years ago by marcopg

  • Owner changed from marcopg to daveb
  • Status changed from new to assigned

comment:11 Changed 10 years ago by mick

  • Owner changed from daveb to mick
  • Status changed from assigned to accepted

I looked at using Q [kju:] -- only because I know it well, I've used it a while ago and i know it is easy.

The pros:

  • it is easy to use
  • i think that this isn't that difficult to do using Q
  • I've been able to compile and run it from source
  • the UI would be easy to even modify and make it easier to use, ex: adding a "start" or something so they know where to click.

The cons:

  • it is really old. it hasn't been maintained in a year
  • qemu guys will tell you not to use it (they recommend vbox)
  • it will be slow

I grabbed an svn snapshot of vbox. Here are some pros and cons:

Pros:

  • will be faster

Cons:

  • I have been having build issues on my macbook :(

So for now, I think I'm going to use the latest svn snapshot of Q. We can move this over to vbox if it is unusable.

  • Mick

comment:12 in reply to: ↑ 8 Changed 10 years ago by FGrose

  • Cc FGrose added
  • Distribution/OS changed from Unspecified to SoaS
  • Summary changed from Easy Mac Emulator for GPA teachers to Easy Mac Emulator of SoaS for GPA teachers

Replying to wadeb:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/01/a-quick-look-at-virtualbox-21.ars

This negative review has a lot of positive comments that are informative, http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/01/a-quick-look-at-virtualbox-21.ars#comments, and suggest a closer look, especially for Windows and Linux hosts.

I've been using both Vista32 and Ibex32 hosts for VirtualBox 2.1.2 quite successfully with SoaS. They are a lot less heavy weight compared to the VMWare I was running in Vista32.

I would recommend that VirtualBox be seriously considered for Windows and Linux hosts and monitored further for OS X hosts.

See http://schools.sugarlabs.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=27 for recent efforts, and http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick_VirtualBox for a wiki page.

comment:13 Changed 10 years ago by FGrose

  • Bug Status changed from Unconfimed to Assigned
  • Type changed from defect to task

VirtualBox 2.1.4 has just been released (16 February 2009), http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads.

comment:14 Changed 10 years ago by mick

  • Owner changed from mick to daveb
  • Status changed from accepted to assigned

I'm assigning back to Dave. I used Q [kju] and it worked, but the problem was that it was really too slow. It took something like 15 minutes to boot. I talked about it a few days ago on irc.

I spoke w/ Caroline and I found out that all of the teachers have Parallels installed anyhow -- so it just makes sense that they get an image distributed that is built for Parallels.

I know it isn't FOSS, but we are in a time crunch and it just makes sense at this point. For this case, it will work.

  • Mick

comment:15 Changed 10 years ago by mick

As for "what virtualization software to support" -> use virtualbox. The requirement that i had w/ this task was to have one installer (so it had to do with repackaging the software+guest os) -- and not specifically what was the best choice for overall virtual machine software. I've use SoaS on vbox and it is really fast. I've had others confirm this.

comment:16 Changed 10 years ago by wadeb

Okay, if VirtualBox is working well enough on Mac, let's standardize on it. Even if it is rough around the edges now, it at least seems that Sun is actively developing it.

Rather than relying on teachers to install VirtualBox, why don't we create a virtual appliance? Then they can just download one file and have Sugar running in a window with a minimum of technical work.

http://wikis.sun.com/display/Appliance/Introduction+to+Virtual+Appliances

The building of these virtual appliances can be part of the standard SoaS build system (the one which currently produces XO images, .ISOs, etc.).

comment:17 Changed 10 years ago by daveb

Unfortunately, that link discusses the concept of Virtual Appliances, where the virtual machine and the environment to run it are combined, it doesn't actually discuss how to do that, or if it is possible with virtualbox.

It sounds like the best option, if it is possible, and we can find out how to accomplish it.

comment:18 Changed 10 years ago by daveb

It looks like we could do something like this
1) Have teachers download/install virtualbox
2) package up the VDI image plus some scripts of some sort that call VBoxManage command line to add the VDI and create a new VM, and create some sort of icon to launch sugar inside the VM.

comment:20 Changed 10 years ago by wadeb

Sounds like a good idea. There might be an open source graphical installer programs out there that would provide a nice interface.

Perhaps we could even include VirtualBox in the installer to make it a one step download and install?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_installation_software

For the OLPC for Windows istaller, I used the open source NSIS package and embedded QEMU and a disk image into the file. But that's a Windows specific option obviously.

-Wade

comment:21 Changed 10 years ago by daveb

It looks like apple provides the installer. I don't think we can distribute virtualbox, but I did not read the license closely.

comment:22 follow-up: Changed 10 years ago by daveb

Actually that's not right since Ubuntu etc distribute Virtualbox-ose. We CAN distribute the open source bits of virtualbox, but its not clear we can distribute the OS X binary install.

comment:23 in reply to: ↑ 22 Changed 10 years ago by lfaraone

  • Cc lfaraone added

Replying to daveb:

Actually that's not right since Ubuntu etc distribute Virtualbox-ose. We CAN distribute the open source bits of virtualbox, but its not clear we can distribute the OS X binary install.

See http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ. We cannot distribute the PUEL'd version, but we can distribute a script which as part of its execution downloads and configures the software.

comment:24 Changed 9 years ago by daveb

  • Milestone set to Unspecified by Release Team
  • Priority changed from blocker to Normal
  • Severity changed from Blocker to Unspecified
  • Version set to Unspecified

comment:25 Changed 9 years ago by sascha_silbe

  • Distribution/OS changed from SoaS to Unspecified

Bulk change distribution=SoaS -> component=SoaS

comment:26 Changed 9 years ago by sdz

  • Summary changed from Easy Mac Emulator of SoaS for GPA teachers to Tracking Bug for Mac related Issue

I'm making this a tracking bug for Mac related issues (and will mark related tickets as duplicates). Issues collected here include sound troubles (#804) and webcam issues (#1010).

comment:27 follow-up: Changed 9 years ago by FGrose

This page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Mac, has be updated recently by User:Interested. (There are some notes left in the wiki source <!-- comments -->.)

comment:28 Changed 9 years ago by sdz

  • Distribution/OS changed from Unspecified to Fedora
  • Milestone changed from Unspecified by Release Team to Mirabelle
  • Version changed from Unspecified to Git as of bugdate

Peter says most of the issues should be fixed with the 64bit compose that's going to happen with Mirabelle. At least the boot ones seem (according to two upstream RHBZ entries) related to 64bit EFI stuff newer Macs are using, I hear.

comment:29 in reply to: ↑ 27 Changed 9 years ago by sdz

Replying to FGrose:

This page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Mac, has be updated recently by User:Interested. (There are some notes left in the wiki source <!-- comments -->.)

This page looks now... whoa! :)

comment:30 Changed 9 years ago by sdz

  • Milestone changed from Mirabelle to Future SoaS Releases
  • Severity changed from Unspecified to Major
  • Version changed from Git as of bugdate to SoaS 3 (Mirabelle)

Can somebody please test Mirabelle on a Mac?

comment:31 Changed 6 years ago by dnarvaez

  • Resolution set to obsolete
  • Status changed from assigned to closed

Closing really old Soas bugs.

comment:32 Changed 6 years ago by dnarvaez

  • Milestone Future deleted

Milestone Future deleted

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